Talk:Civil society/Draft

This article might or might not need to credited to WP; Richard Jensen uploaded it and he has transferred gobs of material that he exclusively wrote. --Larry Sanger 09:33, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

Richard didn't upload it; I did and it has now been completely rewritten so there is no need to credit any wikipedia entry (which contains many subtle errors).

Roger Lohmann 18:56, 22 September 2007 (CDT)

Catalogs

I just activated the catlogs subpage and moved some of the catalogs to subsubpages. They are all referenced under the catalog page and cross referenced to civil society through the subpages template at the top. Is this the way we want to go? Chris Day (talk) 08:38, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

In addition i have activated the debate guide tab. i noticed the civil society debate guide was not showing up in the tabs. It is there now. Chris Day (talk) 08:59, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

Generally speaking, I think many of what Roger has labelled "catalogs" are not really catalogs at all, but simply lists of topics with definitions. That is the format used for "Related Articles" pages...it depends, I suppose, on whether you intend to add other types of information. For a real catalog, see for example Tennis/Catalogs/Famous players. --Larry Sanger 09:23, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

At present they are not catalogs in the true sense. But you can see how they could develop and grow into good catalogs. I'm not sure what the long term plan is for these pages. Chris Day (talk) 09:57, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

Model for subpages

Roger this is shaping up very well as a model for using subpages. Your cluster is maximising the potential of the features available using the subpages tempalte, hopefully it can grow into citizendiums show case example. Chris Day (talk) 09:08, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

I agree, Chris. --Larry Sanger 09:23, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

APPROVED Version 1.0

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Wide page

Something is making this page exceptionally wide and I am not sure where it is. --Robert W King 14:39, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

It just dawned on me that it's probably the width of the subpage template with all tabs. --Robert W King 14:40, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

Add Gellner

I'm adding a few thoughts to the approved article from Ernest Gellner's Conditions of Liberty (1994). However controversial his views on civil society in the Middle East may be, his basic distinctions seem pretty tame and his distinction of the idea not only from totalitarian centralization but also from oppressive traditionalism seems a sound one. Roger Lohmann 11:19, 7 June 2008 (CDT)

Some editorial comments

A couple of comments about this article:

Well, the first paragraph of the article is a direct quote from LSE introduction. The LSE source is cited, but the CZ article should make clear this is a direct quote.

Done. Roger Lohmann

Also, in this paragraph "Measuring Civil Society", the link to Civicus Civil Society Index doesn't work. In the same section, the link to the "instrument" from the Johns Hopkins University Center for Civil Society Studies doesn't lead to the instrument. I'm not sure what book it's in.

Done Roger Lohmann

References #3 and #5 are not really references. #5 is a footnote.

#5 has been incorporated into the text. I disagree on #3: It is "really" a reference; It refers specifically to the online text of a difficult to access publication.

Roger Lohmann

well, this page http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Help:Citation_style talks about citation style. Generally, the citation only includes the book or journal name, date, authors, name of book or article, url, page numbers, stuff like that. So your reference should just be "G.W.F. Hegel, Philosophy of Right Hegel, 1827 (translated by Dyde, 1897)" and the URL. This stuff "For more information, see [1]" is a footnote, not belonging in the reference section.

The top paragraph, as mentioned, is a quote from LSE. But it makes it seem like there is one agreed on definition of civil society. At least one source, http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/civil_society/ indicated there is no universally accepted definition.

I've changed the text. Roger Lohmann

Finally, for now, I'm not entirely clear on the goal of this article. Is it a kind of history of the term and concept? I'm old fashion, but usually the opening paragraph of an article should say somewhere something like "the goal of thjis article is to describe...." or "This article is a brief review of civil society" or something that indicates what the article is going to do. Gene Shackman 03:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

We have a basic disagreement here: I'm as old-fashioned as you when it comes to scholarly presentations, but you are applying the wrong rhetorical standard here. ALL CZ articles are introductory overviews of their topics; that's what encyclopedias do. Presentations of original research results or theory and partisan (editorial) presentations of single-points of view are all outside our brief. Thus, any statement of the type you suggest would be a trite and pointless statement of the obvious: this is, like all other CZ articles this article is an introductory overview of the most significant historical, political and sociological work done on this topic, presented as neutrally as we can manage. There is no need, in this context, to say that. Roger Lohmann

Um, I took a look at the article at about 9:30 pm eastern standard time, and didn't see any of the changes listed above. Do I need to reload the page or something? Gene Shackman 01:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)